...without proper knowledge of the original language and context of biblical content, these passages can easily be taken to mean something quite different than was originally intended
Sorry Derek, I'm not convinced. At the very least the Bible is negative toward homosexuality and at the very most the Bible labels it a behavior that is outside of righteous behavior (sin).
The real problem I have with contemporary evangelicalism is the making of one's view and treatment of homosexuality an issue of orthodoxy.
Yet to single out one sin among many as a test for orthodoxy seems strange to me. What if we singled out gossip or gluttony as the litmus test? So much for church potlucks!
I still believe the acting out of homosexual desires is sin. But so is acting out heterosexual desires with someone other then a spouse.
Obviously the real difference is that a homosexual person then has no legitimate arena in which to act upon their desire. But is this all that unique? I would say no. Does an alcoholic have a legitimate arena? Does a single heterosexual? People experience all sorts of desires which cannot and should not be acted upon. There is always something restraining us be it culture, morals, religion, or others.
Isn't that what being finite is about...limitation? There is only one who is infinite, without limit, and last I checked you and I are not that one.
That being said, I don't think God has it out especially for homosexuals. I don't think God is out to get anyone. Actually, come to think of it, God is out to get us just not in the negative sense of that phrase. God is out to get us, to reconcile us to himself through the person of Jesus Christ. The infinite pursuing the finite. Unlimited grace to the limited.
I don't have all of this figured out, I just know that I am limited, finite, sinful and in desperate need of an infinite, unlimited, perfect God to help me, redeem me, rescue me, love me.
12 comments:
This issue of homosexuality has been shoved down our throats and we are accused of making a big deal of it? The ones making a big deal are those pushing this agenda, and we are supposed to just lay down and ignore it? God has been patient with me and has allowed me to struggle with issues before agreeing with Him and submitting to His perfect plan. Most Christians would agree this is the route to take, but other are pushing this agenda to make us take a stand.
As a Christian, I am fully aware of other sins that are comparable to homosexuality. But should we glory in those sins and insist that they be accepted and embraced by society? We cannot be the Holy Spirit to those that are enticed and lean towards homosexuality. But we can stand up WHEN CONFRONTED and say that it is wrong. It is a SIN.
Those that struggle with homosexuality want to "feel better" by all of us saying that it is a great thing to act out on those desires. When we disagree, then we get to hear how mean and hateful we are. It gets old.
Wow anonymous- That was a mouthful! Sorry to say but I don't buy into this whole agenda thing. I also think you are trivializing things a bit by saying homosexuals want to "feel better" about themselves. Check out this link for a powerful "testimony" concerning the struggle that you out of hand trivialize http://www.royclements.co.uk/essays16.htm.
I do not deny the intensity of your struggle. I too, struggle with issues. As I pray, read the Word and look at my life, I understand God wants me to put off certain things for my own good and because He wants me to. It is His way and not mine. That is what Lordship is as He is my Lord and Savior. I still struggle with things such as lust, alcohol and cigars. Maybe you think those are not worthy of the struggle you have, but please be tolerant of my point of view too.
I am sorry, but God will NEVER sanctify issues such as homosexuality. If you read the inspired Word of God, He says in 1 Corinthians 6……. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.
Now there is more than just homosexual behavior in there. We all have “tendencies” toward most of these forbidden activities, but the key is whether we give in a make these things a lifestyle. As you can see, homosexuality was a issue 2000 years ago. And Paul makes it clear that these people don’t do those things any more.
As far as an agenda. Come on, you can’t be serious. They are throwing preachers in jail in Sweden for preaching the bible now. The thought police are getting geared up all over the world. In the United States gays are demanding extra special privileges and screaming tolerance if anyone objects. I cannot have my own daughter on my company medical insurance because she is out of school now, but gays have demanded and got a domestic partner medical benefit. Most people could care less if 2 gay guys want to live together, but that is not good enough. Now even the gay agenda wants to destroy traditional marriage. Oh yes, there is a huge agenda going on. Gays are desperate to legitimize and MAKE everyone approve of their lifestyle. In order to “feel better” about this lifestyle, they are demanding approval.
But it is SIN. It is not God’s way. If you choose to act out on this struggle, that is your choice. God grace is huge for me and for you. But He will never sanctify this lifestyle. God will never be able to use you for His glory as He wants to. Giving into the sinful nature is not God’s way. He can do more than we can ask or imagine. Give God a chance. He says that no temptation has seized us but what is common to man. BUT He will provide a way out, so that you may stand up under it. Don’t give up and give in. What a testimony you will be to the power of God. He wants so much more for you than what you have now, but He will never be able to use you for His glory like he could if you were not in this lifestyle.
I pray for you and your struggle. Please pray for my struggles too. That I may overcome them and be all that God wants me to be.
God bless
Oh, by the way. I read your "letter to Michael". I have too tried to reason and rationalize my way out of what the bible says. It is pretty easy and fun. It lets me be the Lord of my life, and I get to be saved and live how I want to live. But God has a different plan, and it never works out. I guess if I hardened my heart, I would just go on living in my own sinful nature and never be what God wants me to be.
At least you struggle with this issue and your heart is not hardened. I commend you for that.
But God did make man and woman, Adam and Eve. In His perfection He made both for each other in a heavenly bond to be played out here on earth. There is no provision for a gay lifestyle. The bond of love between Jonathan and David is just that, with no mention of sex, as there was none. More rationalization. Homosexuality is sin. You make that choice and so be it. I have rationalized my sin that way too. Sanctifying sin is not what God does. He provides a way out.
Hey anonymous-
Thanks for your thoughts but...
Just to clarify...my post which you are commenting on said that I believe the acting out of homosexual desires is a sin so I'm not sure why the lecture on homosexuality being a sin.
Also to clarify...my link referred you to Roy Clements site and his articles and testimony, not mine. It'd encourage you to send your comments on his articles and "testimony" to him.
As to agenda, do you really believe that there is a behind the scenes group coordinating the efforts of homosexuals devising a list or program of things to be done or considered? I think a lot of the ideas come from people trying to live their lives, being accepted for who they are. Many of the issues you suggested are part of the agenda, I see as social justice issues.
Medical insurance. What's wrong with covering a domestic partner if the insurance company is willing to do it and you are willing to pay for it?
Destruction of traditional marriage? Perhaps redefining what marriage is, which in my opinion is not a question the government answers. The government decides who has property and custody rights and these are decided based on who is married to whom.
Homosexuals are not seeking to end man-woman marriages...they are seeking to redefine marriage and specifically who has rights to what.
I accept gay predisposed people for "who they are". I also accept alcoholics for what they are. I also accept all of those filling their lives up with the world trying to make themselves "feel better". Whether it be food, sex, alcohol or just stuff.
I have friends that are gay. As I tell everyone that asks, I dont have a problem with them as long as they dont "come on to me". I also have a brother in law who is a drunk. I accept him. I feel sorry for him, that he has that problem in his life. I don't have to accept his lifestyle or agree with it. I accept him , but not his lifestyle. There is a difference.
Yes there is a gay agenda. Don't you read the paper on all the gay groups comparing themselves to the civil rights movement? Of course this is a joke. You have a choice to follow through on your leanings toward homosexuality. You have no choice on being black.
Companies that allow domestic partnership benefits are fine. That is the point. It is never good enough. Gays have all the rights (and even special ones), and it is never enough.
Yes, this will destroy marriage. If gay marriage is the norm, then poligamy will be next. Then groups will want to get married. If gays have "rights", why not a group of people? Then before you know it, someone will want to marry their motorcycle. AS long as there is love and commitment, then who has the right to say no?
Countries like Sweden lets everyone get married.....it has destroyed marriage so much that no one bothers any more.
Anonymous-
I'm still not convinced on the agenda.
And hasn't marriage in our culture already been destroyed by heterosexuals who decided divorce was a better option?
And further, doesn't the Bible record a long, long history of polygamy being the norm? God never comes out and specifically condemns or calls polygamy a sin as far as I've found.
I don't buy this slippery slope argument from James Dobson and others.
If someone is dumb enough to want to marry their motorcycle I don't care! Let 'em!
By the way, I'd love to know your name as anonymous is so impersonal and a long word to spell!
BTW... my name is Steve.
Until your heart is changed, and you accept the Lordship of Jesus in you life, you will not accept the Word of God as something you should live by. Homosexuality is a sin. Rationalization reigns supreme, not God.
God allowed poligamy as well as divorce. It was and is not His perfect will. Divorce is a problem with heterosexuals, but the answer is to strengthen marriage, not to destroy it. The facts of other countries is that gay marriage destroys marriage in general..you can deny facts all you want, but the truth remains.
If you don't care about a state sponsored marriage between a guy and his motorcycle just shows your
lack of caring about the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is a bond given between a man and a woman before God. They become "one flesh". Trivializing marriage is just what I am talking about.
Hey anonymous Steve-
Good to hear from you again. I guess anonymous makes the most sense since you and I would both be Steve's and we and everyone else would get rather confused!
Now to confusion...I have accepted the Lordship of Jesus in my life, my heart is changed, and I have said several times that I believe the acting out on homosexual desires is a sin. I am not a homosexual. I am married and have 3 children. Is that not clear enough? Am I somehow falling short of your definition of an apprentice of Jesus somehow?
Now to polygamy. Is polygamy a sin? Why did God allow for it? How do you know it wasn't His perfect will? Are there other sins God may allow for?
As to divorce. Clearly, Jesus says it is wrong to divorce and that God allowed it. Again, why did God allow it especially if it is a sin? Are there other sins God may allow for? And yes marriage must be strengthened. I just don't think that is the role of the government, is it?
As to other countries...could you show me?
And as to not caring about a STATE sponsored marriage between a guy and his motorcyle, that's the point. It is the STATE and not the church!
A man and a motorcycle cannot become "one flesh" (as far as I know). Therefore, it is not marriage as defined by God. It is marriage as defined by the state.
The state has and will continue to trivialize marriage. It is the church that must not!
I assume, as you say you are a Christian, that you have read the accounts of Old Testament Israel and Judah. God judges nations then and He will now. We have a duty to be good citizens and be a blessing. We must especially protect the kids. We have a duty to do this. We, as a nation have a duty to protect the unborn, especially in these gruesome partial birth abortions. The family unit as God planned it protects kids and preserves the traditional, Godly values that makes this country great. If you don't believe this, then any little tidbit of information that I send will not make any difference.
God's way is the best for not just "church" people. If others want to live in a decadant society, so be it. But we Christians don't and shouldn't have to allow every perversion and destructive idea to be not only allowed, but approved and made the law of the land. Enough is enough.
If you are a Christian and know the Word of God, you know why and how God allows divorce. Divorce is not necessarily a sin. Certain circumstances allow for a divorce.
I will not go into that now, but you can read the bible and find out. You are a man of the Word, aren't you.
I cannot help but think you are not being honest with me. I assume you are the author of this blog. I assume you are a pastor of "2 small congregations". If you really are honest about these issues you have brought up, I am very concerned about your faith. Be very careful. God judges those who teach very strictly. Paul says that if anyone adds to scripture or preaches another Gospel other than what was already described, that he is to be eternally cursed.
I am sorry for being so blunt, but those things need to be said. AS I said, I don't think you are being honest with me, so this will be my last comment. But if you are being honest, I shudder to think you are teaching this stuff.
I will pray for you and your teaching. That you will get into the Word, and preach it. God bless. Steve
Dear Anonymous Steve-
I am utterly confused! Yes I am the author of this blog. Yes I pastor 2 small congregations. Yes I am honest about the issues I have brought up...one's stance on homosexuality as a test for orthodoxy (which I'll say it again so it's clear again, I believe the acting out of homosexual desires is a SIN), divorce, polygamy, the states involvement in defining marriage.
What is utterly confusing to me is that from these questions and comments of mine you have decided to doubt my faith!?
No where have I denied the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. No where have I called into question the reliability and uniqueness of Scripture.
What we disagree on, in my opinion, is how our faith should influence our involvement in the political world especially.
I question how much we should be involved and how much we should argue and legislate against same sex marriages, not because I support them but because I don't know if doing that will help advance the gospel.
Anyway, hope you will continue to post. I don't mean to drive people off because we have a difference of opinion and I certainly don't mean to come across like a false teacher because I raise some questions in order to challenge the thinking of someone!
I wonder if God is trying to bring to pass what he promised in Isisah chapter 4 that in the last days there would be seven women married to one man. maybe the mormons and we were wrong to stop them. Do we want to stop God? Does that make us an anti-Christ if it is his will did Jesus teach in the parable of the ten Virgins plural marriage. We now have homosexuals as Ministers even in the Baptist religion. Many States accept homosexual marriages but maybe God had to cause this to happen so he could fulfil his sayings. As a minister I would much rather seven women married to one man than to see homosexual marriages. If it takes this to happen to fulfil God's plan why are we trying to fight against God?
Rev Russ
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